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Sullivan v Dreher

By E.D. Kain

November 20, 2008

Andrew Sullivan reacts to Rod Dreher. Nobody said this marriage debate would be easy. I guess it goes to the heart of the question of modernity. Dreher sees it intrinsically bound to the failures of our modern culture. Sullivan says Dreher's vision of a return to an older, simpler past is impossible.

I think both are right to some extent. I am very much in line with Dreher's desire to return the culture to a time of heightened spiritual belief, less materialism, and more simplicity. I just disagree that the marriage debate is a fundamental part of the equation. I think other things, like our consumer culture, our media and its glorification of cheap sex, extreme violence, and ridiculous wealth are all far more dangerous to our values than gay marriage.

Sullivan, on the other hand, is wrong to think we can never return to a more teleological society, driven by common purpose, a higher purpose. He's right in that social conservatives need to focus on what is truly important, and denying gays their basic rights is hardly that. With all the ills of this world, social conservatives should be too busy to care about gay marriage.

Essentially I think that the wrong questions are being asked. Modernity is full of moral qualms, but there are good things that have emerged as well. We need to find a way to determine what is truly good, universally good, that has been, perhaps, uncovered only now--like equal rights for women or gays--and what is bad, morally decrepit, or dangerous to a society.

William F Buckley wrote:
 

Conservatives pride themselves on resisting change, which is as it should be. But intelligent deference to tradition and stability can evolve into intellectual sloth and moral fanaticism, as when conservatives simply decline to look up from dogma because the effort to raise their heads and reconsider is too great.

In other words, it is best to be conservative. Tradition has great value. We should seek the wisdom of the past. But we should not excuse ourselves any creative effort, or any reconsideration of our values simply because everything modern can be written off. Sometimes tradition is wrong.

Thus my constant call for balance. If we do seek to do away with some of the follies of modernity, let us be wise in our choosing. Few would argue that the advancements in science should be rolled back. Some social advances are equally right and just.


Rating:
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Comments

Brent Shimmin November 20, 2008 3:01 pm
"Thus my constant call for balance. If we do seek to do away with some of the follies of modernity, let us be wise in our choosing. Few would argue that the advancements in science should be rolled back. Some social advances are equally right and just." So who is this "we", and what would be the consequences for those with whom "we" will disagree, in our free, secular society?
E.D. Kain November 20, 2008 3:04 pm
Brent-- "We" are whoever agrees with this particular cultural philosophy. I would say that those who are too entwined in modern culture and the emptiness and vapidity of said culture will pay the price of less fulfilling lives. I don't know where you came up with the notion that any group wanted to impose consequences on any other group over political differences...
Brent Shimmin November 20, 2008 4:30 pm
Erik- If I was, perhaps, overly sensitive and defensive when reading your post, I apologize: I am just too used to activism in the name of faith undermining my own (and my sister's) pursuit of happiness from Anita Bryant forward. Yeah, I'm that old, and yeah...that activism has had consequences in my life. [insert break] When you say that "Some social advances are equally right and just", it infers that some advances are wrong and unjust, and injustice calls for activism, non? [insert break] I mustn't understand your premise very well, I guess. If you are searching for a personal code of ethics (as opposed to a moral high-ground from which to judge society as a whole), then I'll suggest you keep it simple. Live by the truths your life experience has shown you to be self-evident and lead by being your own best example of these truths. They will evolve as your experience deepens, which is a natural consequence of evolution and growth, which is a good thing.
E.D. Kain November 20, 2008 4:55 pm
I am not an advocate of legislating social programs. I advocate individual and community efforts to strengthen families and society. I believe in positive works, not negative ones. And I believe that not all social "advances" are truly that--for instance the sexual revolution is by and large a good thing, bringing with it equal rights for women. But is the manifestation of an overly sexualized media that encourages even young girls to dress in "sexy" clothes a good thing? Is that the purpose of the revolution? I would say, no!
Brent Shimmin November 20, 2008 6:09 pm
Erik- No one would disagree that the sexualizing of children is a terrible thing, but it was going on well before the Sexual Revolution of the 1960s and 70s. Bram Dijkstra's Idols of Perversity outlines much of the psychology behind the Symbolist art of the turn of the 19th Century http://www.amazon.com/Idols-Perversity-Fin-Siecle-Paperbacks/dp/01950565... and how the imagery not just demeaned women and homosexuals but sexualized children. [Insert break] Personally, I believe that child prostitution and its related tourism in places like Thailand (not that it doesn't happen right here in the USA) is more serious than how some mothers choose to clothe their children. But if you do want to discuss this, I'd begin with the Jon-Benet Ramsey-style pageants that are so popular in the red states: there you have pre-schoolers wearing make-up and heels, parading and posing provocatively in a way that I, along with traditional liberal feminists, find repugnant.
Gherald L. November 20, 2008 4:48 pm
"Sullivan, on the other hand, is wrong to think we can never return to a more teleological society, driven by common purpose, a higher purpose" It would be helpful to me if you could explain this assertion. Why is he wrong?
E.D. Kain November 20, 2008 4:58 pm
I have no more need to "prove" my hypothetical than you have to prove me wrong. It is a hypothetical and I disagree with Sullivan's take that we will simply drift on into an era of further detachment and societal disharmony. Of course I can't prove that I'm right about the future...but I do think that with an effort to restructure how our communities are built, and with the coming recession, many people will have a chance, an opportunity, to reevaluate their lives for the better...
Walter Koehler November 21, 2008 1:37 pm
"Tradition has great value. We should seek the wisdom of the past. But we should not excuse ourselves any creative effort, or any reconsideration of our values simply because everything modern can be written off. Sometimes tradition is wrong." That just brings us back around to square one. Reactionaries want everything to stay exactly as it is, no changes allowed. Radicals want everything to change, upset the entire apple cart. The rest of us are trying to make sense out of all of it.

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